The rotation occurs before the free foot - in this case the left - moves.

Before you can even think of disputing the point, consider the fact that ALL CBM begins before the free foot moves, in all Standard dances.

You're trying to argue that the body rotation and the moving of the free foot must occur at the same time. They do only for poor dancers.

Also, no action in the thigh (not the knee) of the supporting leg is necessary to produce CBMP; only foot action is required. Such thigh action IS necessary to produce CBM. There is no grey area.

As I pointed out earlier, CBMP concerns the feet; CBM concerns the body.

jj

Previously you had tried to claim "If there's a "right side lead" in your setup and you maintain that lead when stepping forward with the left foot then you are using CBM."

And I pointed out that this is in fact false - what you have described does not necessarily include rotation, and thus does not necessarily (or in the formal technique) include CBM.

Now you try to change the argument and say that the rotation occurs before the foot moves. But leftward rotation occurring (as it does in the official walks) while the right foot is moving forward and the body is arriving onto it cannot qualify as CBM, since it's in the wrong direction relative to the moving foot.

(Note that your argument would only really come into play for the walks if you dance four walks instead of just two, so that you have a transition from a right foot walk including some rotation to a left foot walk officially without rotation. Also, if your mistaken argument were instead valid, it would make it extremely difficult to dance two walks and a link without adding CBM to the link where the technique quite explicitly states CBM is not to be employed. Granted you can dance a variation of the link with CBM just as you can modify the left foot walk with CBM - but the real question is, do you have the grounded stability and standing leg action needed to dance the official versions without CBM? Or can you only dance modified ones with CBM added?)

"Also, no action in the thigh (not the knee) of the supporting leg is necessary to produce CBMP; only foot action is required."

Substantial standing knee action is required if you wish to project forward into a healthy-sized CBMP step with or without rotation. This is basic physics - to resist the fall when your weight is in front of your point of support, you must increase the normal force or drive from the standing foot. To do so forward in CBMP instead of purely forward requires an action of the standing knee scissoring behind the moving one. If instead you are content to place the foot without moving the body forward, then you don't need much standing knee action.

"There is no grey area."

Actually, there is. CBM is produced by driving the moving side of the body forward faster than the standing side. (CORRECTION: should say standing side faster than moving side) As a result, the initial standing leg action is very similar to that used to drive a healthy-sized CBMP step, the difference is that the force is applied slightly off center from the body's center of mass in the CBMP+CBM case in order to drive one side of the body past the other, while in the CBMP-only case it's directed precisely at the center of mass to drive both sides of the body forward equally, without inducing rotation.

Are you claiming that Moore specifically prohibits CBM on Tango walks in "The Ballroom Technique"? If so, please share with us the specific location of that passage.

There is no change in my argument; the "right side lead" is created by the same thigh action which effects CBM. It's simply created before the free foot moves.

There is alos no issue with continued walks. As the right foot takes the weight from the preceding walk it must re-create the thigh action which produces CBM.


This statement is simply untrue. You keep insisting on using the expression "knee action," showing clearly that you just don't understand this movement. All that's necessary to establish CBMP by itself with no CBM is action in the standing foot, as much or as little as is desired.

If you add thigh action - as a good lead should - then you're also using CBM.


Dude, in CBM, the moving side of the body IS the standing side because CBM is created in the thigh of the standing leg. The free side of the body doesn't move until CBM is completed.

Movement of the side of the body of the free foot is created by the standing foot. That movement can't be made until either the heel (forward step) or toe (backward) releases.

Folks reading this can do their own experimentation.

I will keep repeating this statemen because it lies at the heart of this discussion: CBMP involves the feet; CBM involves the body.

No body movement is necessary for CBMP; no foot action is necessary for CBM.

jj

"Are you claiming that Moore specifically prohibits CBM on Tango walks in "The Ballroom Technique"? If so, please share with us the specific location of that passage."

More does not give CBM for the left foot walk. But the passage that you have fractionally quoted concerned not that but instead the explicit prohibition of CBM on the link. If you had not excessively trimmed the quote, this would be obvious - my message actually read:

"would make it extremely difficult to dance two walks and a link without adding CBM to the link where the technique quite explicitly states CBM is not to be employed"

I explicitly said that the mistaken CBM would apply to the link. As you would know if you have opened your book recently, the technique quite explicitly states that there is no CBM on the link. However, if we subscribed to your flawed argument that body rotation during the right foot walk to maintain the right side lead is to be considered CBM on the following step, then we wouldn't be able to dance a link after a right foot walk without employing CBM. Your argument is thus inconsistent with the formal technique - if you want to dance in a revisionist manner, fine, but it has no bearing on what the technique actually says.

Likewise, if we follow a right foot walk with a left foot walk, your argument would have us using CBM on the left foot walk - despite that being absent from the otherwise extremely detailed explanation of the left foot walk and its placement in CBMP.

"There is no change in my argument; the "right side lead" is created by the same thigh action which effects CBM. It's simply created before the free foot moves."

No, it's created by an action on the other step - the left foot sending the body to the right foot, wheras CBM in this direction can only occur as part of the overall action of the right foot sending the body to the left foot.

"There is alos no issue with continued walks. As the right foot takes the weight from the preceding walk it must re-create the thigh action which produces CBM."

No - if it were the case that the action of reconciling body alignment to foot alignment during the right foot walk were to somehow qualify as CBM on the following step, then it would not be possible to follow a right foot walk with a step not having CBM, and the technique is quite explicit in their being such cases - see for example the above mentioned progressive link, and the progressive side step.

""Substantial standing knee action is required if you wish to project forward into a healthy-sized CBMP step with or without rotation."

This statement is simply untrue. You keep insisting on using the expression "knee action," showing clearly that you just don't understand this movement. All that's necessary to establish CBMP by itself with no CBM is action in the standing foot, as much or as little as is desired."

Standing knee action is required to move the body weight any substantial distance forward into CBMP. As I said before, if you prefer to take the step without really moving your body forward, then you wouldn't need much knee action.

"If you add thigh action - as a good lead should - then you're also using CBM."

Only if in so doing you induce body rotation. If you propel both sides of the body forward equally, no CBM is being used.

""CBM is produced by driving the moving side of the body forward faster than the standing side."

Dude, in CBM, the moving side of the body IS the standing side because CBM is created in the thigh of the standing leg. The free side of the body doesn't move until CBM is completed."

FALSE.

You really need to spend some time studying CBM with a competent teacher - if we did what you suggest, turning around a stationary left side of the body which is not yet moving forwards, our left elbow would move against the direction of rotation, and that is absolutely contrary to sound construction of a progressive figure. Most teachers will actually insist that reverse turning CBM occurs quite late relative to the travel of the step - some would even say after the left foot is in place. That's in marked contrast to natural CBM, which occurs much earlier in the action, though still without a retrograde elbow.

Now it is true that I accidentally flip-floped the wording in my message - but that's obvious. Your mistake is in the fatally flawed idea that the slower side is not also moving forward during the action of CBM.

"Movement of the side of the body of the free foot is created by the standing foot. That movement can't be made until either the heel (forward step) or toe (backward) releases."

FALSE

By using your knee as good dancers do (and especially in tango), a large amount of movement can be made during the phase while the standing foot is still flat on the floor. Not that the rise of the standing toe or heel is by itself any particular boundary in the applicability of the technical terms under discussion.

"Folks reading this can do their own experimentation."

Indeed, they should. Learning to execute a left foot walk or a link without CBM is essentially to understanding tango - as is learning to execute a strong reverse turn sufficiently progressive that the left elbow does not move backwards in space.

"I will keep repeating this statemen because it lies at the heart of this discussion: CBMP involves the feet; CBM involves the body."

You forget that our body and our feet are connected. Something that shows up in one is invariably caused at least in part by action of the other. Try not to confuse where we measure the action with where we create it.

"No body movement is necessary for CBMP"

FALSE, unless you are content to place your foot without body TRAVEL (as indeed there are a few places one legitimately might).

"no foot action is necessary for CBM."

FALSE. CBM in the usual meaning of the word is not a stationary rotation, but rather one superimposed on progression - one side of the body passing the other while both sides are moving. You cannot have meaningful progression from a lowered position without foot action. Even within the initial realm of a tango movement where the standing foot is still flat on the floor, the movement of the weight within that foot requires action of its muscles.

You said that Moore "explicitly states" that CBM is not to be used. Just indicate where I can find the text in which he does so. Do you know what "explicitly" means?

CBM is not progressive. It is executed by the thigh of the standing leg. By the time forward or backward movement begins, CBM is complete.

It's been made quite clear in this and the thread on the Natural Spin Turn that Moore never had a good understanding of CBM and that you don't either.

I stand by my previous comments. Your responses are more of a refusal to admit that you're incorrect than a revelation of your dancing knowledge.

jj

"You said that Moore "explicitly states" that CBM is not to be used. Just indicate where I can find the text in which he does so. Do you know what "explicitly" means?"

You need only look at the charts in the revised technique for the progressive link and the progressive side step, where you will see CBM explicitly listed as "nil".

"CBM is not progressive. It is executed by the thigh of the standing leg. By the time forward or backward movement begins, CBM is complete."

FALSE.

That CBM is something caused by the standing leg but occurring during body progression is one of the most basic, essential concepts in ballroom dancing. As you've failed to understand the concept in words, I would strongly recommend in person lessons with an expert teacher who can show you this key aspect of technique by feel.

including a national champion and other national finalists.

Yes, CBM is one of the most basic concepts in ballroom and one which you - sadly - do not understand.

We were discussing Tango walks but I'll accept your response. As I pointed out earlier, Moore's judgment on CBM is questionable at best.

As for the Progressive Link, I had difficulty with it many years ago until one pro showed me how to apply CBM. I've never had trouble with it since, even successfully leading women who didn't know how to dance it. If the man does not use CBM in addition to CBMP, he won't have the energy to create the crisp finish on the second step.

Without CBM on the first step, the Progressive Side Step becomes a very flat, ugly figure which heads off in the wrong direction..

CBM must take place before body progression in order to create an effective lead. Otherwise, the man is just pushing or pulling the woman.

Please work with a competent teacher to understand what is required for a man to lead a Standard figure properly.


Given your lack of understanding of CBM, I'm assuming that you meant to write "technique by feet."

jj

"including a national champion and other national finalists."

And this person told you that, as you wrote earlier today, by the time forward or backward movement begins, CBM is complete? Somehow I don't think so - since such a ridiculous view is in conflict with all tradition and practice of the concept.

"We were discussing Tango walks but I'll accept your response. As I pointed out earlier, Moore's judgment on CBM is questionable at best."

On the contrary I find it excellent. There does appear to be simple typo-class error that snuck in with regard to the CBMP (not CBM, CBMP) in the spin turn. If you look at the fourth edition of "Ballroom Dancing" (vs the current 10th) it's quite informative on the history of the situation, the appropriate amount of turn, and the that true direction of the lady's step 5 in actual practice is more sideways than back. It's really too bad all that material was subsequently cut.

"As for the Progressive Link, I had difficulty with it many years ago until one pro showed me how to apply CBM.
I've never had trouble with it since, even successfully leading women who didn't know how to dance it."

There's a simple explanation for why many causal dancers do that - they lack the standing foot strength to project their body forward into the version without CBM. By using CBM where it isn't called for, and by doing it stationary over their foot before they move, they avoid having to employ the weaker forward part of the foot (or the lady's likely unstable heel) to project the body weight into the step.
In effect, they are taking the step as a foot position only, and not a body movement. But the quality of the dancing suffers extremely compared to those who have built the strength and skill to do it right. If social dancing with an untrained follower, I'm not sure that I wouldn't also try using CBM to cover for her unfamiliarity with sending the body from the standing foot, especially into CBMP.

This would of course be distinct from an artistic or floorcraft decision to execute a sort of turning link with CBM added on top of a full action to achieve a different alignment than that of the syllabus figure. Optional embellishment can be great within judgment - but embellishments made mandatory by lack of strength to do the basic version cleanly are a fault to be avoided.

"If the man does not use CBM in addition to CBMP, he won't have the energy to create the crisp finish on the second step."

What you mean is, if a man with weak feet does not use CBM to conceal this fact. But a couple who has practiced and built their foot strength has no such difficulty.

"CBM must take place before body progression in order to create an effective lead. Otherwise, the man is just pushing or pulling the woman."

A subtle hint in the direction of standing knee action that CBM will be involved would ideally be present from the commencement of movement but that is a far cry from your fatally erroneous earlier claim that the CBM must be complete before the forward or backward movement. Particularly in reverse turns, the portion present from the start is so externally invisible that many world-class teachers will initially tell you that reverse CBM occurs after the step, rather than before. As long as the lady doesn't have the habit of pulling away from the man, this later lead is really not that problematic in practice, though it gets refined by subtle usage of the knee from the start of the drive in the students who have studied with them longer. And the simplification of overly late reverse turn CBM is far less limiting of dance quality or character than the more common mistake of rotating before moving.

You seem to believe that if you vomit up enough nonsense (e.g. "externally invisible") then you prove a point.

All of the comments in this post just back up an observation that I've made about you previously. You have no idea how to lead a partner in ballroom. There are no hints in leading, subtle or otherwise. Leads are clear and deliberate. Ballroom is not a magic show.

As I stated before, my comments stand on their own and remain unrefuted.

jj

"As I stated before, my comments stand on their own and remain unrefuted."

On the contrary, every one of your comments has been refuted numerous times - you just refuse to accept that fact.

The reality is that CBM is neither part of the official description of the progressive link nor the slightest bit necessary for an outstanding execution by a skilled dancer. Even those who modify their walks from the book version by adding CBM out of an artistic desire to make more turn than the original broad curve don't find it necessary to resort to CBM on the link. You can find such an example right here on this website.

You can hide behind your keyboard, or you can go out into the real world of dancing, take some lessons, and start catching up with what the rest of us already know.