"On three ( and ) if the lady hasn't got her foot back to the toe right there she will get pushed off balance if her feet are together and the man drives on one. So on the count of ( and ) the man's feet will be together, or rather side by side. On that same count the lady will have already extended."

Don, what you are describing is the classic mistake of a student who confuses a temporar exercise with actual dancing.

It is WRONG WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!

Yes, the backward partner will extend their foot back slightly before both bodies start moving into the step. But the greatest portion of the travel of the backward partner's foot comes only as both bodies are moving through the standing feet.

You can't reach a foot out there behind a stationary body and arrive on it, because:

1) While you are reaching the foot, your body is stationary and blocking the progress of your partner.

2) You have no idea yet how big the step will be.

There is a slightly pre-extension of the backwards foot. But the majority of its travel occurs during the travel of the body, with the travel of the foot being a PROPORTIONAL magnification of the travel of the body.

Anonymous. Would you say that the length of the first part of the backward step is of an indeterminate length. We all agree it does go back before the man goes forward, which must mean they are for one brief moment standing still, that is the body would seem to be standing still if I were watching from the outside. You know , verticle lowering and all that, with the ladies leg moving before the man to that indeterminate length.Which then moves again as the man drives forward.
As a matter of interest we had to do this as an excercise painfully slow showing two leg lines before we did it at normal speed. Still showing leg lines which if you look can be seen on any decent DVD right to the toe..

Anonymous. I just noticed that bit about the lady being in the way. She won't be in the way at all. For a start even though the body is still in the same position. Remember we never dance square. As the leg moves back the hip will always finish the move which will invite the man through. To add to that the lady is already standing to the man's right and is at a slight angle. ( not square )

"Anonymous. I just noticed that bit about the lady being in the way. She won't be in the way at all. For a start even though the body is still in the same position. Remember we never dance square. As the leg moves back the hip will always finish the move which will invite the man through. To add to that the lady is already standing to the man's right and is at a slight angle. ( not square )"

You completely miss the obvious fact that in a non-turning action you are foribben from passing a partner who is in front of you - you just can't do it. Your body cannot move until hers does, and shaping provides no "out".

To invite a partner to move forward into your space, you must not only achieve the proper shape for the character of motion to be danced, you must also move your 'zhopa'. Otherwise you are an obstacle, not a partner. Get that standing heel down, roll the weight through to the heel and release the toe, sending your body back into the movement. As the body moves, your leg will go from that small pre-extension out to its full stride, magnifying the motion of the body.

Shape does not invite movement, movement does.

"Anonymous. Would you say that the length of the first part of the backward step is of an indeterminate length."

The overall step is of an indeterminate lenght, which means that the pre-extension must be smaller than the smallest expected step, otherwise the lady would not be able to get on her foot if she had already placed it further than the man decided to move.

"We all agree it does go back before the man goes forward, which must mean they are for one brief moment standing still, that is the body would seem to be standing still if I were watching from the outside."

Absolutely not. Outside of static lines and checks, the body is never stationary when lowered, but always in movement, even if you have just lowered from having your feet closed in waltz.

"You know , verticle lowering and all that, with the ladies leg moving before the man to that indeterminate length."

The body is not stationary in a vertical lowering - as soon as that heel touches the floor, horizontal movement should be visibly occuring. Note that this means that to maintain vertical alignemtn you will have to depart from balance over your standing foot - another concept you refuse to learn.

"As a matter of interest we had to do this as an excercise painfully slow showing two leg lines before we did it at normal speed. Still showing leg lines which if you look can be seen on any decent DVD right to the toe.."

The key word is exercise. There is certainly an element of pre-development of the backward leg for a small distance, but in actual dancing it is always the minority component of the stride, overshadowed by the leg movement that occurs during the body movement and is caused by the body movement.

Anonymous. I 'll just go to one part of your thread. I was going to bring this one up. You did it for me. That is the body not stationary in verticle lowering. Which is correct. This is where the argument starts.
As we lower the sides of the body don't stop moving. The body itself cannot be moving on the verticle lower, otherwise it is moving backwards and lowering at the same time. Here it is. The CBM starts to go into position before the step backwards has hardly started. To put it another way.
Lower. Move the shoulder and side . Body still in the same place as the lowering. Then the foot goes into position, as you have said. Then drive onto one. This is how the body never stands still. Which you have undoubtably read and not understood. Other wise you wouldn't be saying that lady takes her weight away before she starts her extension.
The main correction on your thread is. The body does not move from a verticle to a horizontal movement. It cannot pull away from the man who is still in his lowered position with his feet together untill beat one when he will have moved his body as well as his side CBM before step one. On one the man will drive. The only movement apart from the verticle lowering is a movement of the shoulder and side. We don't want a corkscrew spine do we.

"As we lower the sides of the body don't stop moving. The body itself cannot be moving on the verticle lower, otherwise it is moving backwards and lowering at the same time."

The body must keep moving. Indeed you will be moving forwards or backwards while lowering. This is in fact the only way you can do it and make it work.

"Here it is. The CBM starts to go into position before the step backwards has hardly started."

CBM has very little to do with it.

"Move the shoulder and side . Body still in the same place as the lowering."

If you move one side progressively while not also moving the body center, then the other side of the body will be moving against the direction of progression, which as I am sure you know is a fatal error. In rotation, neither side of the body may be permitted to contradict the direction of travle - at most it may stay stationary in space while the body center moves somewhat and the opposite side moves substantially.

"Other wise you wouldn't be saying that lady takes her weight away before she starts her extension."

I didn't say that. What I said is that the part of extension that occurs before is small - the majority of movement of the moving foot occurs only as the body is moving.

?The main correction on your thread is. The body does not move from a verticle to a horizontal movement. It cannot pull away from the man who is still in his lowered position with his feet together untill beat one when he will have moved his body as well as his side CBM before step one."

Your mistake is now revealed. You assume that as long as the man's feet are together his body cannot be progressing. But this is uterly false and you will not really be dancing until you figure it out!! The man's body moves forward into the movement, overbalancing beyond this feet. It is this movement of the body which then prompts the moving foot to seperate from the standing one, and start to swing into the step. We went over this many times before, but you always refused to listen - after then heel touches down, the knee bends forward, with the entire body moving forward in vertical alignment over the knee. NO LEANING. NO LEANING!! Instead, a vertically aligned body progressing forward, leading the free foot to take its stride.

but you won't listen, will you?

"We don't want a corkscrew spine do we."

Actually, "corkscrew" is precisely the word an outstanding mentor of mine uses to describe the body twist necessary for reverse CBM.

Anonymous. We lower through the feet and the knees but we do not move forward or back whilst we are lowering. Then we apply CBM. Lowering and moving at the same time was how it was taught way back.
Don't you think paragraph two and ten contradict each other.
In one paragraph you say We will be moving forward or backward whilst lowering.
In ten you say.After the heel touches down the knee bends forward with the entire body moving forward in a verticle alignment over knee.
But you are still over the same spot. If you move your body forward you are falling forward. And the lady backwards.
So once again. We lower and flex our knees , bend, recharge the knees, call it what you like. We lower vertically and not horizontally. Keep the shoulders moving. Never actually coming to a standstill.
Try this. There are six different moves or positions over three beats in the Modern Waltz.
One is foot forward./ Two is bring your foot alongside the first step and bend your knees./ Three is step to the side./ four is draw the feet together./ Five is rise up./ Six is lower the feet and bend the knees,/ at the same time the lady will starts to extend the foot. With all of this we apply CBM where it is required. Don't make the mistake on being too high on the step to the side. If you do you have nowhere to go on the third beat because you are already there on beat two.
The book says Commence to rise at the end of one. Continue to rise on two and three. Lower at the end of three. Foxtrot is different.

"Anonymous. We lower through the feet and the knees but we do not move forward or back whilst we are lowering."

This is the same fatal misconception you stuck to in the past, and it is clearly holding back the development of your overall understanding of dance and dance posture.

As soon as your standing heel touches the floor, if not before that, you must be moving your body weight across the floor. If the touching of your standing heel to the floor occurs before the end of the lowering (as it obviously will by by quite a bit) then you have real horizontal movement during the later portion of the lowering.

Try to hold your hips back in stability over your standing foot, and you have ruined it.

"Lowering and moving at the same time was how it was taught way back."

Perhaps those old geezers knew something you have overlooked?

"If you move your body forward you are falling forward. And the lady backwards."

Yes, this is precisely what you need to do. Of course you need to maintain vertical alignment as you fall. If a man falls and leans forwards, he will fall on his partner. If he falls forwards while his body remains upright, he falls in his own space, while his partner will fall in her own space - remaining precisely in front of him, and even potentially in contact if they do it perfectly.

"We lower vertically and not horizontally. Keep the shoulders moving. Never actually coming to a standstill."

IF your shoulders keep moving but your center does not, you will end up leaning forwards. I hope you would agree that is a fatal mistake? So you must move your center - you shoulders can come along, but have to move less than your center.

"Try this. There are six different moves or positions over three beats in the Modern Waltz."

Perhaps, but they would not be even remotely like what you posted. You really do not even begin to udnerstand these dances yet, but after some hundreds of posts explaining them to you, it's becoming clear you probably never will, because you simply refuse to learn.

Anonymous. Are you forgetting something here. With your feet on the floor to get the weight over the toes would mean leaning forward. But we rise onto our toes and the greater part of our movement is spent going up. To me that is staying on the spot. My toes haven't moved. But my heels are at an angle of 45 degrees. Which means our knees are also creating an angle between our shin to the floor.