If a transfer of weight is executed differently in one style or dance compared to another then there is a variance in style or dance.

"Huge variance"? Oh, come on. Like a Fox Trot heel turn is so much different from those in Waltz and Quickstep that they require different training regimens.

Still waiting for an answer on that question about your having an amateur partner.



jj

"If a transfer of weight is executed differently in one style or dance compared to another then there is a variance in style or dance."

The issue is not in the transference of weight, but in the projection of the body weight from the standing foot which must long precede the weight change. This is not a difference of "style", its, it's a drastic difference of situation and requirement.

A feather step requires that the already challenging large projection of the body required for an outside partner position be generated not from a flat standing foot as in waltz or quickstep, but instead from the toe of a risen standing foot.

Most beginners (indeed most dancers of any period of experience) who have not had focused physical training for competition purposes simply cannot do this. The result is that their outside partner actions in the foxtrot are "fake" and will remain "fake" in the sense that they are missing the required body projection.

Dancing foxtrot badly without this element does not lead towards ever developing it. Instead, drilling full actions in the context of waltz and quickstep is what tends to lead towards building the physical capability to attempt the more difficult projection-from-risen-toe action required in the foxtrot.

You can continue to ignore this, but the more you claim it to be nonsense, the more you hint that this action is probably still missing in your own dancing.

""Huge variance"? Oh, come on. Like a Fox Trot heel turn is so much different from those in Waltz and Quickstep that they require different training regimens."

I never suggested there was a huge variance between waltz and foxtrot HEEL TURNS, instead my comment that you quoted above was in a message entirely about the substantial differences in outside partner requirement, a message that made no mention of heel turns at all.

Where heel turns are concerned, my implicit raising of the SIMILARITY of the requirement between waltz and foxtrot was how we got onto the subject of bronze foxtrot in the first place. In pointing out that the double reverse spin is often not advantageous to a bronze competition effort, I raised the relatively rarity of foxtrot (which we should all recognize as the dance where heel turns are effectively mandatory, rather than optional) being offered at bronze. From there we got into the other reasons why early attempts at foxtrot are unproductive, such as the risen outside partner issue.

On which step of the Feather is this "projection of the body" generated?



jj

PS
Obviously, you do not have an amateur partner.

Strange.

Still, your secret's safe with me. I won't tell anyone else on the board. I promise.

"A feather step requires that the already challenging large projection of the body required for an outside partner position be generated not from a flat standing foot as in waltz or quickstep, but instead from the toe of a risen standing foot.

On which step of the Feather is this "projection of the body" generated?"

I probably should have chosen my word more carefully, as it is ideally "generated" during the downswing of the previous measure. The subject challenge however is to carry that movement energy right through the arrival onto step two so that it can result in projection of the body into an outside partner position over and beyond a risen standing foot during the portion of step three before the third step has been placed. The weaker foot of a newer dancer is not yet capable of this, especially over the lengthy amount of time that this body projection must be sustained to match the tempo of the slow foxtrot.

In contrast, in waltz or foxtrot we would be carrying the downswing's energy into an outside partner projection on step one, where the standing foot supporting the projected body is still in the much stronger position of being solidly flat on the floor.

Practicing this in the waltz and quickstep helps set the idea of what will need to be done in the foxtrot outside partner, while practice dancing a foot rise dance builds the foot strength. Finally, striving to keep the feet acting forward during steps one and two of the waltz natural briefly tests the capability of supporting the body weight in front of the toe of a risen standing foot needed for foxtrot, but without actually ruining the dance when it's not there.

All Emsachez wanted to know was how to start his Waltz.
If I were in a competition or on a crowded floor I would most likely start with a Whisk on side two ( the short side ) depending on the width. If I wanted to start on side one I would most likely start with a Travelling Contre. diag to centre. A Quick Open Reverse and leave all the others to struggle out of that side one corner. To coin a phrase. Courses for Horses depending on the situation.
Which brings me to. Thats why I would have my groups eight bar phrased. I can choose which one I will used and which to to be followed by.
Never become one who has to start exactly on that spot with exactly that routine.

But isn't that energy "generated" from a flat foot after the downswing of the first step and not a preceding figure?

What possible preceding figure would lead into a Feather on a downswing? If one did, you would have no energy for the rise at the end of step one.



jj

Just follow and teach the correct technique which is for the Waltz Commence to rise at the end of step one. If it is Foxtrot Rise at the end of step one. All Bronze Medal stuff.

"But isn't that energy "generated" from a flat foot after the downswing of the first step and not a preceding figure?"

Supplemented a little from a muscular push, but no, most of the energy in an upswing comes from the previous downswing or body speed of the previous measure.

"What possible preceding figure would lead into a Feather on a downswing?"

The feather is not on a downswing, it is preceded by the downswing of the previous figure.

Any time we have two figures with rise with an intervening lowering we see this - the actual cycle of a swing is from step three of one measure, down, then back up to step three of the next.

An alternate source is the situation of the prep step, where you descend from standing height while also getting an additional step to gradually contribute movement energy from your muscles.

Choreographically, there would a greater number of clear downswing-upswing energy carry over opportunities for the feather finish and the back feather than for the ordinary forward feather. But regardless of where the energy came from originally, the challenge during step three of the feather action is to sustain that projection forward of the toe of a risen standing foot.

"If one did, you would have no energy for the rise at the end of step one."

The projection and body drift in step three comes from having more energy than is needed for the rise - the body does not stop in waltz, it drifts right on through while only slowing. That this movement continues into a projection of the body into an outside partner position beyond the risen toe of its standing foot is what makes step three outside partner in foxtrot so much more challenging than the step one outside partner encountered in bronze waltz and quickstep.

Waltz & Quickstep: project body into outside partner position supported from a standing foot that is flat on the floor

Foxtrot feather action: project body into outside partner position supported from the toe of a risen standing foot

The energy for steps 2 and 3 of the feather comes from the power generated during the first step.

Also, this "projection of the body" that you describe as part of this difficult movement is really no big deal. The man simply comes out of the first step with a left-shoulder lead. Doing so from a toe (shorthand for "risen foot") is just as easy as doing so from a heel.



jj

"The energy for steps 2 and 3 of the feather comes from the power generated during the first step."

Only if you dance in the "wasteful" way using muscles to do everything rather than letting it come from your downswings. Some people do that because they feel it makes it easier, but it makes the dance look heavy rather than effortless and floating. And it doesn't change the challenge of projecting in the risen outside partner position.

"Also, this "projection of the body" that you describe as part of this difficult movement is really no big deal."

If it was no big deal, then people would get it right. They don't - in large part because they lack the foot strength to do it. You can see the same lack of strength in the temptation to depart step one of the waltz natural sideways from the ball of foot, rather than continuing forwards over the toe, though it's not as drastically detrimental to the flow of the dance there as failing to project forwards from step two of the feather is.

"The man simply comes out of the first step with a left-shoulder lead. Doing so from a toe (shorthand for "risen foot") is just as easy as doing so from a heel."

Doing it from a toe requires that he support the entire weight of his body not just from the ball of his left foot, but ultimately from the toe of it - not because he is going up, but because he is projecting his body beyond the standing foot. In waltz or quickstep he could project from a supporting foot that is flat on the floor rather than risen.

Most newer dancers, males especially, cannot stand on one foot with the ball of the foot slightly off the ground and the toes taking the weight, which is an equivalent challenge even though the application in foxtrot is forward projection rather than vertical rise. But dancing a lot of waltz and quickstep can develop the foot and start to build that capability.

Lighter females, especially those with some childhood ballet background may be able to do it, but unfortunately in the feather they are not asked to project from a risen standing foot, instead they are asked to send their body weight backwards to and ultimately through the standing heel, something that those with either a ballet background or simply reflexes for self-preservation when wearing ordinary high heels tend to be very hesitant to do.

It occurs to me that bronze foxtrot might work better if we had the ladies do the forward outside partner action projected from a risen toe, and the men roll through their standing heel!