Phil. Have you tried to stand left side leading with strong CBMP. We do know that we don't alter our top shoulders over hips. The whole side turns evenly. With my left side leading how on earth can I turn my hips to the left and leave my shoulders where they are. You must come into a neutral position before going into the Reverse. If you look at a tape I am sure you will be able to pick when the LF comes into this balanced point. The hips rotate to the left then step off on the left foot with CBM into the first of your Reverse. Hold a broom handle in a ballroom position. In CBMP on the third step how are you going to turn your hips and leave the broom handle where it is.
As a lady with the broom handle held get into the third step. That's right shoulder in position with the LF. across the body in CBMP. The lady on the first step of her Heel Turn
applies CBM. How is this going to happen unless she comes into a neutral position rotating anti - clock still backing diagnal to the centre.

"Phil. Have you tried to stand left side leading with strong CBMP. We do know that we don't alter our top shoulders over hips. The whole side turns evenly. With my left side leading how on earth can I turn my hips to the left and leave my shoulders where they are."

The outside partner position of the feather may have the entire left side leading. Moving into the reverse turn, you would keep a left shoulder lead, but rotate the hips somewhat - so you might choose to no longer call it a left side lead since it would not be the entire left side but only the topline. Most people would still call it a left side lead though.

"You must come into a neutral position before going into the Reverse."

If you take in person lessons with the world's best teachers, you will be specifically asked NOT to do that, and instead asked to maintain the left side lead/left shoulder lead until step 2 of the reverse turn.

"Hold a broom handle in a ballroom position."

Please describe exactly what you mean.

Regardless, your test is irrelevent. Maintaining the left lead in the topline while showing some slight CBM in the hips is not particularly difficult for a skilled dancer. That you haven't personally figured out how to do it has now impact on the reality that the rest of us can.

The idea with the broom handle is to show that the shoulders remain square.to each other. And as we all know the distance beween our partner with that left hand is equally in between. The hand must not be pushed forward or back. A common fault fault is to allow the elbow to move forward towards the lady forcing the ladies right arm backwards. Solo with the broom stick as a guide. Another way is to place a cane across the crease at the elbow joints. Another way is to hold a piece of cord stretched between the hands . And yet another is to hold your tie in your right hand at what is a ballroom hold. The setup between the cane broomhandle cord or tie will ensure that everything will turn equally. With the left shoulder in position diagnal to the centre and the cord taught we step across the body with the Rf. That is CBMP. Then the body revolves into a neutral position. You are still facing diagnal to the centre as the left foot is sent forward and the step has CBM. If you go in with a left side lead you will miss the CBM. on step one completely. As I say if you can keep your shoulder still and turn your hips you have a distressed look about your shoulder line. At the end of the Feather on the count of four and there is a collection point and the shoulders will be square over the hips just as they were in the beginning. If you have missed in your teaching the collection or neutral position I would suggest that your tapes are all about groups and not the correct action on each step.
You said about lessons with the worlds best teachers. Can you name me one who doesn't change there shape at the end of the fourth beat and name me even one who teaches a left shoulder lead onto the first step of the Reverse Turn which completely misses CBM on that step.
To go back to the beginning. Are you really serious when you say to keep the left side lead stiil and turn your hips into it anti - clock. I might call you a twisted individual. This is such Basic stuff its frightening to think you are let loose.
If anybody finds this a bit confusing I would suggest you go to the Learning Centre and find your way to the Feather Step. And then look at where the not twisted position is at the end of the fourth beat. Anonymous. You have a look and come back and tell what you see. Then go and tell that teacher of yours to also have a look. Phil. You might join them and also tell what you see.Whilst there take a look at the end of the Three Step. Surely nobody believes that there is a right shoulder lead into the Natural.
Anononymous. When you have repeatedly suggested lesson from a world class teachers you are really trying to give the impression that you have or are. The class of teacher you are refering to I doubt if you could get a booking. You would be passed on to the assistances assistant. Maybe you are not aware that even a professional has to book months ahead and continuously so. If you didn't know you do now.

"he idea with the broom handle is to show that the shoulders remain square.to each other."

Okay, but that says nothing about the shoulders with respect to the hips.

It is true tha many beginners spend years trying to use their arms as handles to torque their body, and as ar esult break their shoulders. The broomstick might help with that. But serious dancers have moved past that error - the alignment of their shoulders is perfectly extended by their forearms, so the broomstick does nothing for them.

"If you go in with a left side lead you will miss the CBM. on step one completely."

Indeed, there seem to be two views amongst world class coaches:

1) Reverse turns do not actually have any CBM at all - the rotation is entirely saved for the second step, at which point it cannot technically be called CBM.

2) Reverse turn CBM is in the hips and feet alone and does not affect the shoulders

"As I say if you can keep your shoulder still and turn your hips you have a distressed look about your shoulder line."

No you don't, because the shoulder line is completely unaltered by the turning of the hips. If it were altered, then obviously you have not managed to hold your shoulder line "still". So your argument is rather silly.

"At the end of the Feather on the count of four and there is a collection point and the shoulders will be square over the hips just as they were in the beginning."

In a word, no. That is not how it is actually done.

"You said about lessons with the worlds best teachers. Can you name me one who doesn't change there shape at the end of the fourth beat and name me even one who teaches a left shoulder lead onto the first step of the Reverse Turn which completely misses CBM on that step."

I do not name names, but of the numerous world-champion-class teachers I have studied with or seen teach, none have expressed an opinion about this other than one of the two I posted above - there is either no CBM on reverse turns, or the CBM is only in the hips.

"To go back to the beginning. Are you really serious when you say to keep the left side lead stiil and turn your hips into it anti - clock."

Exactly.

"This is such Basic stuff its frightening to think you are let loose."

The truth about the basics is rather shocking, when you discover that it doesn't match what your provinical teachers have been promoting...

"If anybody finds this a bit confusing I would suggest you go to the Learning Centre and find your way to the Feather Step."

We are talking about a level of dancing you are not likely to see reflected there.

"Surely nobody believes that there is a right shoulder lead into the Natural."

Natural and reverse CBM are not mirror images of each other. That is the whole point! Natural actions have the shoulders turning first, reverse actions have the legs and hips turning first.

"The class of teacher you are refering to I doubt if you could get a booking."

That just proves your ignorance. Anyone can - but you obviously haven't tried. Yes, you need to pre-plan to match their schedules, but it is not that difficult.

Anonmymous. If on a clock face my shoulder and the whole side of my body is pointing towards one. If I come into a neutral position which is the same shape that I started in the first place. My front will now be facing one . The whole of my body has rotated and I step onto step one of a Reverse with CBM.
It would seem that you somehow try manage to keep your shape. That is left shoulder leading and turn your hips only. That is ridiculas .
I think you might have the idea that to change from one shape to the next it means standing still. Does a pendulum stand still at the end of its swing as it changes to swing in the opposite direction. Rocket scientists . Does it stop. Or does it keep moving.
I said . If you keep your shoulders still and turn your hips. ( this is at the end of the third step of a Feather step in CBMP . You will have a distressed look about the shoulder line. You said .No you don't. Because the shoulder line is completely unaltered. Your way it is altered. The shoulder is supposed to stay in line with your hips.
Heres a little test for you. Go into a Throwaway Oversay. Twist your hip out of line with your shoulders. Now turn the whole side, hips in line with the shoulders.
You would say the first one is correct because it is consistant with what you have said. But you would be wrong would you not.
Try something else. The class has learnt the Feather Sterp. The teacher is now teaching the Reverse Turn. How will you line yourself up to begin the Reverse. Are you serious that you would start in a twisted shape. That is with the shoulders pointing towards one and your hips turning to the left. Now come on lets be serious now.
If you are going to be consistant that is how you would start wouldn't you.
And to suggest that the Learning Centre is. I will quote. We are talking about a level of dancing you are not likly to see reflected there.
I would like to add this. That Melisser in poise and shape and performance looks remarkably like my teacher who just happens to be in the top twenty in the whole of this wide world. They are invited to dance all over the world and to give lectures teach and demonstrate. Have you ever danced out of your backyard. Untill you learn to keep your sides shoulder and hips in one line the backyard is where you will stay.
Those imaginary blocks of wood we have below how ribs at the pelvis level. Stop moving them about. That is twisting one over the other.

"Anonmymous. If on a clock face my shoulder and the whole side of my body is pointing towards one. If I come into a neutral position which is the same shape that I started in the first place. My front will now be facing one . The whole of my body has rotated and I step onto step one of a Reverse with CBM."

Don't do that!

The key lesson is to NOT neutralize, but to keep the left side lead throughout step 1 of the reverse turn. Some rotate the hips while keeping the side lead in the topline, others wait until step 2 even to rotate the hips. That's simply the way it is done by the best...

"If you keep your shoulders still and turn your hips. ( this is at the end of the third step of a Feather step in CBMP . You will have a distressed look about the shoulder line. You said .No you don't. Because the shoulder line is completely unaltered. Your way it is altered. "

No, I have not altered my shoulder line in either its form or its rotational orientation, so there is no way that it can be stressed. If there were to be stress somewhere it would be in the middle of the trunk, on account of the difference in alignment between hips and shoudlers. But in fact that is not stressful - it is easily accomodated by any healthy body.

"The shoulder is supposed to stay in line with your hips."

You are not going to understand dancing as long as you cling to flawed ideas such as that the shoulder must remain aligned with the hips. It's simply not true!

"Heres a little test for you. Go into a Throwaway Oversay. Twist your hip out of line with your shoulders. Now turn the whole side, hips in line with the shoulders.
You would say the first one is correct because it is consistant with what you have said. But you would be wrong would you not."

You want to turn your hips more than you r shoulders, because this is a reverse figure. But keep in mind that in comparison to what the best teach, the usual performance of a throwaway is grossly overdone. Just a few weeks I had a such a lesson, and was shocked - I kept asking shouldn't it be bigger, and the answer was NO! It is not a time to open out like a book, it is a time to maintain a closed hold and over-sway.

"The teacher is now teaching the Reverse Turn. How will you line yourself up to begin the Reverse. Are you serious that you would start in a twisted shape. That is with the shoulders pointing towards one and your hips turning to the left."

Yes. The rotation of the hips into step 1 is fairly slight though - just enough to hint that this is a turning figure. Beginners of course have to overcrank the CBM because they do not yet have highly developed lead and follow skills that can make it work with only very subtle rotation.

"my teacher who just happens to be in the top twenty in the whole of this wide world"

If you think that means much, you really haven't studied with any of the top teachers yet. Try to get in the habit of meeting several times a year with the people your teachers go to for THEIR coaching, and you might start learning some of the truth. In fact it is rather shocking that you have not already done so - teachers in the sort of position as yours would ordinarily encourage (perhaps I should say even pressure) their serious students to work with the same experts they themselves go to for coaching, because they know how critical that is to your development.

Anonymous. You cannot turn your hips to the left after the third step of the Feather in CBMP without turning the shoulders and the whole of your side.
From that third step with CBMP you could go straight ahead without turning the hip and the left side leading. I' ve been all through this before several years ago with that kind of teaching. Just from memory it was about ten years ago. I soon saw the light and came back to the way I was originally taught. I found with the left side lead into the Reverse I had very little control on the third step. Also the second step I was not able to come around square to my partner. It went too far down the LOD making the whole thing What I would call out of controll. If you look for a particular point with todays dancers . Look at their position on the second step of the Reverse. Are they all the way around or only partway
Are you still in good shape or is your right elbow behind the line of your body. Or is the whole of your body at an angle.

"Anonymous. You cannot turn your hips to the left after the third step of the Feather in CBMP without turning the shoulders and the whole of your side."

Yes you can! It's not physically taxing at all, however it will require a short effort of practice to learn to use the muscles independently. One of the major challenges in learning to dance is learning when to use muscles together when you had not been in the habit of doing so, and when you must use some muscles while not using others you had previously been in the habit of using. But for the small amount of differential hip rotation needed, there is no physicall stress involved at all!

"From that third step with CBMP you could go straight ahead without turning the hip and the left side leading. I' ve been all through this before several years ago with that kind of teaching."

Yes, not turning anything during step one is the other expert opinion. I personally believe it is inferrior to turning the hips without the shoulders, but some quite good people do believe in it.

"I found with the left side lead into the Reverse I had very little control on the third step. Also the second step I was not able to come around square to my partner. It went too far down the LOD making the whole thing What I would call out of controll."

Well, you need to learn to aim. Like everything in dancing it takes practice. And yes it is initially easier if you crank your right side into advance... but that's not the best way of doing it in the long run, because it is incompatible with maintaining a full and offset hold as we must today.

Anonymous. I don't believe it. You actually said. I personally believe it is inferior turning the hips without the shoulders. What has made you change your mind after all this time. Could it be that at last you caught up with one of your world class coaches.
Just to put anybody straight. Just below your waist we have three blocks of wood stacked exactly one upon the other. We must not allow the top ones to tilt out of line. They must remain stacked evenly. Also you must not twist these blocks one over the other so that two are pointing one way and two the other. This might be over simplifying thing but you can get the general idea that we keep our sides in an unbroken line, our shoulder over our hips. When we turn the whole lot turns as one unit not the shoulders standing still and the hips twisting.
Somebody might ask. How on earth do we obey the above rules and apply CBM CBMP. It's easy just keep them stacked..
Those of you doing Latin it is an entirely different story.

"Anonymous. I don't believe it. You actually said. I personally believe it is inferior turning the hips without the shoulders."

Of course you can't believe it, because you HAVE MISQUOTED ME!!!!!

What I said was:

"Yes, not turning anything during step one is the other expert opinion. I personally believe it is inferrior to turning the hips without the shoulders, but some quite good people do believe in it."

See that little word "to" following inferrior? I am saying that not turning the hips is INFERRIOR TO turning the hips.

"When we turn the whole lot turns as one unit not the shoulders standing still and the hips twisting."

Get some real lessons and you will discover how wrong your "rule" is!!!